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Not Enough Juice: Reality and Alternative Energy

Last post 10-08-2009, 4:01 PM by timallard. 4 replies.
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  •  07-01-2009, 3:43 PM 31051

    Not Enough Juice: Reality and Alternative Energy

    On the eve of the recently completed Wind Power Conference, Siemens Energy put out a press release trumpeting an order for 33 of its 2.3-MW wind turbines. The units are destined for a wind farm in North Dakota expected to have a generating capacity of up to 75 MW.

    You might think a wind farm with 33 wind turbines would make a significant dent in the demand for fossil fuels. But its contribution as a green-power source only comes into perspective when considering the power needs of a big city. Peter Huber, a Manhattan Institute scholar and one-time MIT associate professor, has figured this out. He calculates that meeting New York City’s total energy demand would take about 13,000 wind turbines the size of the Siemens units going into North Dakota, all spinning at top speed. And to meet the Big Apple’s peak energy demands, you’d need about 50,000 of them sprinkled in dispersed locales to give yourself enough reserve margins of power.

    Huber’s point in making this calculation is that there is a lot of ignorance floating around about how difficult it is to get a large amount of power out of wind and, for that matter, out of solar cells. And though exhibitors at the Wind Power confab displayed a lot of interesting technology, there was nothing there that invalidated Huber’s projections about getting enough juice from green-power sources to run cities.

    Huber also points out that power would still be expensive even if the 50-story-high turbines themselves were free. Proponents of wind generation explain that the technology continues to improve, with more reliable generators, gearboxes, and ancillary equipment coming off the drawing boards. Nevertheless, the infrastructure costs of maintaining wind installations are significant and will remain so. There probably isn’t even enough government subsidy money to make wind more than a niche power source.

    Companies supplying the wind industry understand this, but are enthusiastic about wind anyway. It is easy to see why: Capital-equipment manufacturers I spoke to all said their business is essentially dead except for wind-energy contracts.

    The facts about wind power are all the more sobering in light of recent proposals to make coal-generated electricity more expensive through cap-and-trade climate bills. Backers of such legislation see it as a way of promoting green-power alternatives. Ironically, the more-likely outcome will be to make the U.S. more dependent on foreign oil. Even if wind farms were on an economic par with coal-fired generators, it would take time to erect enough turbines to make a difference.

    For example, Siemens figures it will take about two years to get its 33 wind turbines up and running in North Dakota. At that rate, the 13,000 turbines necessary to meet New York’s average needs would be ready in the year 2797. In the meantime, utilities will be burning more petroleum products to avoid passing onerous carbon taxes onto ratepayers.

    Of course, there is an easy way around burning coal or buying foreign oil for electricity, and it doesn’t involve dedicating thousands of acres to wind farming or solar cells. Nuclear power is clean and compact, and it is safely used in countries ranging from France to Japan. It’s just not politically correct, at least in the U.S. But unlike some of the alternatives, it is not a green bridge to nowhere, either. -- Leland Teschler, Editor

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  •  09-06-2009, 9:28 AM 72573 in reply to 31051

    Re: Not Enough Juice: Reality and Alternative Energy

    Lee,

    Huber is 100% correct.

    To make any kind of a significant dent in the amount of energy that the United States uses by making a switch to wind would be that largest project ever undertaken in history.  This is true because there are two problem with "wind" as everyone knows, one is that the places where you have good wind are not where the people are.  And two, the net generated power of wind systems (at the source) is at best only a 1/4 of the name plate rating meaning that you need 4 times the capacity to insure that the power you need is actually there.  Within that context the number of turbine that you would need to make a difference in where the energy comes from at the level of the "country" range between 500,000 and a 1,000,000 by say 2050 even figuring in energy efficiency and reduced standards of living. 

    To achieve that would require installing 2,000 2.5 mWh (name plate) wind turbines every month starting now and for the next 40 years. Now that would be an engineering challenge beyond going to the moon.

    Dave

     

     

  •  09-09-2009, 3:02 PM 79652 in reply to 31051

    Re: Not Enough Juice: Reality and Alternative Energy

    One thing that kept bothering me was that no one appeared to be even thinking of, much less estimating, job losses caused by green energy mandates. The renewable energy people are always quoting the number of green jobs created for this or that project, but no one even seems to be thinking about the jobs lost due to inefficient use of resources, that is money. The taxpayers will be subsidizing renewable energy mandates, either directly (in Missouri, for instance, the utility companies have been ordered by the voters to get X% of their future electricity from renewable sources) via huge rate increases, because electricity from renewables costs 3 times that from coal and nuclear (the numbers I saw suggest 15 cents/kWh vs. 5 cents/kWh), or indirectly, through national debt and taxes. Turned out someone has been thinking about net job losses--I found a European university study that looked at this very thing--their conclusion is that for every green job financed, the US can expect to lose 2.2 jobs, and that doesn't even consider how many jobs would not be created had the money been directed to other, more productive industries.

    http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf 

     In order to be fair and balanced, so to speak, some green energy promoters don't think much of the study (counterpoint):

    http://greeneconomypost.com/analysis-myths-green-jobs-programs-spain-us-2911.htm

    The counterpoints are speculative, as is the report itself. However, it is clear after reading the report that there is an inherent (intrinsic?) inefficiencies in directing capital (money) towards industries like renewable energy that are more inefficient than the existing choices (that is, coal and nuclear). What is not in dispute is that currently, though they are getting the basic energy for 'free' (wind and sun), renewable energy costs much more than coal and nuclear, and that this difference means if we choose to invest in such intrinsically less efficient energy producing methods, we will be wasting resources, which is inefficient, and which will result in net loss of jobs in the US.

  •  10-07-2009, 4:58 PM 129646 in reply to 31051

    Re: Not Enough Juice: Reality and Alternative Energy

    At some point in the future we will no longer be able to obtain power from coal, oil, and nuclear.  The sources for coal and oil are finite, and nuclear power generation creates waste.  The Yucca mountain debate illustrates some of the fundamental issues with the disposal of this waste.  Even if everyone was willing to have a nuclear waste dump in their back yard we will eventually run out of places to put it, since it has a half life in the thousands of years.  

     

    Wind power may not be the answer, but the continued reliance on coal, oil, and nuclear is not sustainable.  If we do not find a way to build that green bridge to the other side of our energy dilemma then we are just passing the proverbial buck to the generations to come.  Reduce and reuse applies to energy as much (or more) as it applies to pop cans and newspaper.  

     


  •  10-08-2009, 4:01 PM 131980 in reply to 31051

    Re: Not Enough Juice: Reality and Alternative Energy

    There are other things to consider. It's quite simple to store enough heat energy to run the big energy users in a house with solar-thermal direct, no conversion, so I have a project going that's developing the collector-storage-distribution system and also the appliances. These include the stovetop, oven, refrigerator-freezer, hot water, washer-dryer, AC and space heating, all run on a thermal fluid. The appliances will look identical the difference is having thermal fluid connections instead of a plug or gas line.

    Once these are removed from the needs of the house for power, using PV's is much more practical, ending up with an off-the-grid home. Scaled up none of these large installations are needed in the future except perhaps for industry but even there I'm starting to evaluate manufacturing with these concepts in mind..

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